The lower two are fake ECC83 tube that friend of mine showed me....
There is no <> mark on the bottom of the tube.
The logo is silkscreen printed with permanent pigment, the genuine one was made with powder printing which can be easily removed by rubbing on it. So the real one has a inomplete printing of ECC83 logo whereas the fake one has a more complete and beautiful Logo!
I head that some of the fake one even can make a <> mark at the bottom. So you have to be exercise with care when you buy the vacuum tube. The best is asking some expert to check the construction of the plate and getter inside...or buying from a reliable source.
Feverip
6 comments:
Hello,
I think you are not right with your comment about the "fake" pair (what I can see from the pic).
1. I have some <> ECC83 with nearly no visable <> mark on bottom. But with glasses you can see them. Maybe here is the same.
2. There are indeed some kinds of print which are very strong. Not all are easy removing prints. Especially these ones with bold letters.
3. And at the end: These "dirty" glass bottoms look for me really like genuine Telefunken ones!
Regards, heinz
Hi Heinz,
Yes, some of the genuine has light <> mark on bottom, and some rare sent Genuine printing is quite hard printed...
Well, some times it is hard to tell as people are smarter than ever now to copy tubes simple there is a market for it.
The tubes actually was told by the seller to us that is Fake and I had been sent to experts to check they said so... Very solid reason is that there is no <> mark at the bottom and by listening test, there is not too quiet as the genuine Telefunken.
Anyway, thanks for your comment!
The "fake" Telefunkens above are actually made by Siemens, at their Munich factory. Their factory code is usually I62 (top line)and below, "=" with "/" thru it on 2nd line etched code at base. They are wonderful tubes if they are the Munich I62 version (early 1960s)-- later versions not so nice. After West German Telefunken stopped production at Ulm and Berlin, they began to label Siemens Munich and even Mullard UK (rare) ECC83 with official Telefunken logo(after 1971). Of course, Ei/Nis in Yugoslavia had for LONG TIME (starting in 1963)made "real" Telefunken tubes with <> in glass bottom (early outsourcing!!) for Telefunken, also Czech Tesla did this production of <> ECC83 and even ECC803S <> (!!) when West German Telefunken could not meet demand. Telefunken supplied cathode emulsion, and raw metals until 1971 to EI, Tesla, and Siemens for making <> tubes. The <> Ei ECC83 are special, great treble. They are not FAKES so much as VARIANTS. (by not meaning to decive, really, and being done by actual Telefunken company) REAL <> Telefunken ECC83 made by 6-7 different factories in 5 different countries; this is wjy so many different opinion on these ECC83; there is no one "Telefunken ECC83"; there are 5-7-- you can see difference in plate vent structure and micas.
Hi
Thanks very much for the article regarding the fake Telefunken ECC83.The problem is I do not have all the related document in these tubes. There is a expert in HK who has published article regarding the Tube, but there is still a lot of knowledge to tell that is real of fake or not. So I am a green learner. When I buy tubes, I ahve to ask expert for his comment on these are fake ot not. The One shown on the picture, he told ne is fake, anyway, I still have some NOS ECC83 with smooth plate. They come with box, so they should be real. Moreover on chap told me oif the logo on the body is not able to be removed , seem sprinted with solid paints is fake? Is that valid to say!? if you can give comment on that!?
Kowloon Snob
Hello-- A few years after the Berlin Wall came down, perhaps in 1991-1995, many, many Telefunken ECC83 (and even many more "<>" gold pin Telefunken E88CC and E188CC) with the <> molded in glass bottom were released to USA, Western Europe, UK, and Asia markets.These "<>" Telefunken tubes all had much different painted Telefunken logo than normal; These <> tubes had a very light beige, off-white Telefunken painted logo that is very hard to rub off-- almost permanent/ "solid paint" as you say. Normal white logo paint on Telefunkens is pure chalky white (never light beige)and rubs off just by barely touching it. These light beige logo <> Telefunken tubes did not always test or sound as good as other Telefunken ECC83 we all are used to. On Hickock 539C tester, many of these Telefunkens tested 1650 mhos triode one, 2150 mhos triode two! This imbalance, and the number of microphonic tubes we were seeing, is very rare for normal Telefunkens. As many as 20% of light beige, solid paint Telefunken tubes were very microphonic or noisy. I believe that these beige "solid paint" logo <> Telefunkens were made by East German RFT. RFT acquired plate stampers, Telefunken machines, "<>" mold makers for glass bottom, etc. after West German Telefunken stopped production of 9 pin preamplifier tubes in the 1970s... And then East German RFT (I believe)made hundreds of thousands of "iron curtain Telefunken" tubes for East German military and East German and other Iron Curtain Countries military use. After the Berlin Wall fell, Western European businessmen came into East Germany, and found warehouses filled with "iron curtain Telefunkens", ECC83, E88CC, CCa, E188CC etc, made in East Germany by RFT. Most had no Telefunken painted logo because damp warehouse storage for 20 years wore chalky white logos away--- so these entrepreneurs/opportunists painted solid paint, light beige logos to better sell tubes. Very easy to get silkscreen Telefunken logos painted if you have money. These RFT Telefunkens are OK tubes, but not GREAT like West German Telefunken. The very bad ones are the East German E88CC and E188CC. Real West German Telefunken (Ulm, Berlin) E88CC and CCa are treasures! These East German <> E88CC had light beige solid paint logos, uneven getter flashing, and poor internal transconductance balance (we tested many as bad as 9500 mhos triode one & 13,000 mhos triode two!!) VERY NOISY TUBES, too. These East German E88CC and E188CC ruined the market for Telefunken E88CC because they are so bad; real Telefunken E88CC and CCa are best ever. Finally, in Ebay era bad tube dealers have devised way to apply "<>" mark to glass bottom of 1990s Ei Yugoslavian smoothplate ECC83 to make them look like real "<>" Telefunken. Some apply clear epoxy to tube bottom and use metal "<>" die stamp to apply "<>" and make fake Telefunkens. Others cast '<>" in clear polycarbonate and then affix this "<>" to tube bottom. My solution to have best chance of buying real "<>" bottom West German Telefunken ECC83? I avoid tubes with perfect, intact 100% pristine Telefunken painted logos. I buy "<>" bottom Telefunken ECC83 with label of USA audio manufacturer like "Fisher/ made in West Germany" or "Dynaco/ made in West Germany" etc but with "<>" molded in glass bottom. These are always early West German Telefunken production(pre 1965 usually) and always real Telefunken. A final way to tell West German real '<>" tubes? West German Telefunken always flashed a small amount of copper into the bottom glass, making it look a little dark with slight dark green hue at the edge of the bottom glass of the tube. This is hard to describe with words.I will be in touch with more details; I am not a tube dealer, though.
Hi
Fantastic, amazing, Wonderful!
I am sure I find the guru for Telefunken Tubes, I will read it tomorrow when I go on the road. May I ask if you have the solid painted tubes ECC83 and ECC803S selling to me.....!!
HK Snob
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